Changes to OE

Phil McCrackin wrote:

Rayjan Deja wrote:My idea for the need of the ship to stay for a certain time was that power needs to be diverted to weapon systems from the thrusters and jump drive in order for the weapons to be able to retain their damage dealt as the atmosphere will absorb most of the energy. It then takes time to divert power from the weapons back to the thrusters and power them up. It takes less time for smaller ships because they have smaller thrusters. Colony bombing weapons get their massive damage from using the oxygen in the atmosphere to create sizeable explosions, they are less effective in space because there is no oxygen

So Ray, what you want to do is basically take the weapons mounted in the ship and have them perform dual roles. One configuration for ship to ship and another for planetary bombardment. On planetary bombardment since it takes so much more power we must make the ships go through a reconfiguration which would be the 30 second delay where all power is diverted to weapons?

I like this and that entire concept could be another research item to introduce a completely new class of weapons to the game. You take your chances on the base balanced weapon and either work it for ship to ship or colony bombardment.

In a way yes. Your character or an AI will redirect power from engines to the weapons thereby increasing their damage out put but this will only happen if you're attacking a colony. For the player they will simply target the colony and you'll start shooting but be unable to move until your last shot has been fired. Allowing on the ball players to drop in and do around 10-20k worth of damage to the shields, but the enemy ship to escape intact. Special weapons would be developed for colony bombardment rather than altering existing weapons to make them perform that way.

Ray, I also like the idea of dedicated space to ground weaponry. It means if you opt to go after colonies, you need backup. The whole idea that a single disgruntled player could go in and single handedly take out someone's colonies while they are offline is crazy. There will be winners and losers, and there will be sore winners and losers. It's all part of the fun. But the colony defense aspect of the game was sorely imbalanced at the end, and it was way too easy to wipe a player.

Here are a couple of other possibilities for carrying forward I would like to point out....

1. Like I said before, a reset of the game is a perfect time to change the game fundamentally for the better. I remember reading the history of Niridia, and wasn't there an empire in control of the government before the galactic government as "we knew it?" Maybe we could go back in time at a point at which there are two government system types, empire and rebel. Players could pick sides and the game could be enriched by player raids on the opposing systems governments. Technologies and skills could be different...but of course there will be crossover tech through a black market. Maybe even have a pirate/criminal enclave at odds with both organized governments, taking advantage of the chaos. There could be secret locations and uncharted planets known only to players in that faction.

2. Another possibility is a 'fast forward' to the future. The iconic players and locations of 'our time' only exist in memory and lore. Aliens from an unknown origin have invaded the galaxy and the players and gov't are in an all-out battle for survival. Technology salvaged from earlier alien incursions and sheer strength of will have been keeping them at bay...for now. An epic struggle with a good back story would do well to draw players into the game and keep them. There are infinite possibilities here. No better time to change the story as well as the game.

Paul - I volunteer to help write that story and would like to submit it to the community here for feedback. I was outlining some fan fiction for the community -- when the game started to go south and things seemed bleak, I suspended work on it.

Simply resetting the same game and putting it back up is putting a band-aid where a tourniquet is required. There's a dedicated fan base here that we can use to make a kick-*** game that will survive long-term. I don't think anyone wants to see the game come back only to fail again after they've invested more time and energy into it.

I disagree Vaugn, I liked the fact OE was a sandbox.

Vaughn Chisholm wrote:Ray, I also like the idea of dedicated space to ground weaponry. It means if you opt to go after colonies, you need backup. The whole idea that a single disgruntled player could go in and single handedly take out someone's colonies while they are offline is crazy. There will be winners and losers, and there will be sore winners and losers. It's all part of the fun. But the colony defense aspect of the game was sorely imbalanced at the end, and it was way too easy to wipe a player.

Here are a couple of other possibilities for carrying forward I would like to point out....

1. Like I said before, a reset of the game is a perfect time to change the game fundamentally for the better. I remember reading the history of Niridia, and wasn't there an empire in control of the government before the galactic government as "we knew it?" Maybe we could go back in time at a point at which there are two government system types, empire and rebel. Players could pick sides and the game could be enriched by player raids on the opposing systems governments. Technologies and skills could be different...but of course there will be crossover tech through a black market. Maybe even have a pirate/criminal enclave at odds with both organized governments, taking advantage of the chaos. There could be secret locations and uncharted planets known only to players in that faction.

2. Another possibility is a 'fast forward' to the future. The iconic players and locations of 'our time' only exist in memory and lore. Aliens from an unknown origin have invaded the galaxy and the players and gov't are in an all-out battle for survival. Technology salvaged from earlier alien incursions and sheer strength of will have been keeping them at bay...for now. An epic struggle with a good back story would do well to draw players into the game and keep them. There are infinite possibilities here. No better time to change the story as well as the game.

Paul - I volunteer to help write that story and would like to submit it to the community here for feedback. I was outlining some fan fiction for the community -- when the game started to go south and things seemed bleak, I suspended work on it.

Simply resetting the same game and putting it back up is putting a band-aid where a tourniquet is required. There's a dedicated fan base here that we can use to make a kick-*** game that will survive long-term. I don't think anyone wants to see the game come back only to fail again after they've invested more time and energy into it.

I'm thinking that would have to be fan fiction only, although you might be able to get it made into canon. I do agree with Ref on the sandbox ideal. Thank you for your comment on my space to ground weapons It got me thinking about how colony defences might work, as if only fleets were able to take down colonies then that would put indies, or our lovable pirates at a disadvantage, so I was thinking of a system where only one colony defence flat pack can engage one ship, if two ships are on the planet then the two flatpacks can engage both ships, but both have to target a different ship. There would also need to be a cap of 2-3 defence packs for size 50's 3-5 for size 75's and size 100's would have a cap of 4-6. Once the shields are down and the defence packs start taking damage the damage they deal is proportional to the damage taken, making it easier and easier to take down a colony. Chances are these flats will only be used in wartime due to their massive power consumption and the space they require.

Vaughn Chisholm wrote:Simply resetting the same game and putting it back up is putting a band-aid where a tourniquet is required. There's a dedicated fan base here that we can use to make a kick-*** game that will survive long-term. I don't think anyone wants to see the game come back only to fail again after they've invested more time and energy into it.

Preach it Vaughn!!!

As I'm reading through these posts I'm seeing a lot of patterns come up. You have one camp who want the game to be restarted as it was and continue on. Those players (from my observations) were mainly those that stayed to grinding either in the cargo or combat areas and had a lot of fun just dueling. Let's call them the grasshoppers. You had the other camp which were into research and manufacturing. We never had the time or money to go off dueling and getting into trouble because our colonies required so much attention to keep them up and running. We never had the time for dueling because we couldn't afford the repairs. We were the ants.

In the camp of the ants, we say the game is broken. We are the guys who make the ships, guns, power plants, engines, space stations, etc for the grasshoppers to play. If changes are not put in place to balance, the ants won't come back and the grasshoppers won't have any toys to play with. If I come back, I need to be able to have fun too or it won't be worth coming back.

Something needs to happen with the economic systems of OE to allow the manufacturers to have better income flowing back. 10% right off the top to put an item up for sale is steep. Even if it doesn't sell, the station gets 10% regardless from the manufacturer. If the manufacturer reduces the price to sell, that money was never refunded. If the price increased then the station wanted their cut in the difference immediately. If the buyer removes the item from sale the 10% tax still has gone to the station and the seller only has the items back and is broker from the failed sale. This is bull****! The station should only get their 10% at time of sale and that cost should be paid by the buyer just as in real life.

This is one small change would drastically change the game dynamics for manufacturers.

I agree with that

Phil McCrackin wrote:

Vaughn Chisholm wrote:Simply resetting the same game and putting it back up is putting a band-aid where a tourniquet is required. There's a dedicated fan base here that we can use to make a kick-*** game that will survive long-term. I don't think anyone wants to see the game come back only to fail again after they've invested more time and energy into it.

Preach it Vaughn!!!

As I'm reading through these posts I'm seeing a lot of patterns come up. You have one camp who want the game to be restarted as it was and continue on. Those players (from my observations) were mainly those that stayed to grinding either in the cargo or combat areas and had a lot of fun just dueling. Let's call them the grasshoppers. You had the other camp which were into research and manufacturing. We never had the time or money to go off dueling and getting into trouble because our colonies required so much attention to keep them up and running. We never had the time for dueling because we couldn't afford the repairs. We were the ants.

In the camp of the ants, we say the game is broken. We are the guys who make the ships, guns, power plants, engines, space stations, etc for the grasshoppers to play. If changes are not put in place to balance, the ants won't come back and the grasshoppers won't have any toys to play with. If I come back, I need to be able to have fun too or it won't be worth coming back.

Something needs to happen with the economic systems of OE to allow the manufacturers to have better income flowing back. 10% right off the top to put an item up for sale is steep. Even if it doesn't sell, the station gets 10% regardless from the manufacturer. If the manufacturer reduces the price to sell, that money was never refunded. If the price increased then the station wanted their cut in the difference immediately. If the buyer removes the item from sale the 10% tax still has gone to the station and the seller only has the items back and is broker from the failed sale. This is bull****! The station should only get their 10% at time of sale and that cost should be paid by the buyer just as in real life.

This is one small change would drastically change the game dynamics for manufacturers.

One reason I started dR. W was because I could not compete at manufacturing with Ref Minor, the main problem was I was competing with people who did not pay for their workers, therefore did not pay for resources and could dump parts onto the market at below my cost price for similar parts. When people were earning 10k for a 5minute combat job and you had to sell a shield for 20k that you had created a colony, mined the resource, collected it, manufactured the unit and put it up for sale, it was dispiriting.

Brandon and I are looking through the code to make changes in how things work - rest assured we will balance everything.

@DrW : That last post made me wonder - why did you have to sell the shield for 20k?

Paul Hutson wrote:Brandon and I are looking through the code to make changes in how things work - rest assured we will balance everything.

@DrW : That last post made me wonder - why did you have to sell the shield for 20k?

Because those who were not paying for workers and so resources were selling for that price, if I put my similar statted items up in the marketplace at cost plus a reasonable margin I was undercut and no one bought. At the time I didn't know that people were not paying for workers wages, I just didnt understand how or why they were selling so cheaply.

I agree with Ref and Phil both. PDN's were going for several million (depending on the build) at one point, if I remember correctly. I remember guys grinding for weeks to afford that awesome SdF build, come time to fly it. Once APDN's entered the scene, there was no need to recouperate the price for a blueprint, and all of a sudden the best player-made blueprints were worthless and a waste of time and money. My mk20 pdns were selling around 100-150k around the end of the game. It wasn't even worth the time and energy to gather the resources. If the game had lasted another couple months I would have (hopefully) surprised everyone with a mk25 PDN I had been brewing up, basically a Katana with poor gas mileage. But we're talking over a year of research to get there, and they still would have sold for chump change compared to the time and effort I put into them.

Basically IWS purchases should not interfere with the player economy. There were a lot of good players lost in frustration when the first IWS came out. If you make an IWS item, differentiate it from the rank and file production items, e.g. require a higher rank to fly it. Automate resource collection and/or streamline the worker interface. Maybe make it so you hire workers direct, or pay for transport to your colonies. If I take a job in another town, my employer isn't necessarily required to pack up my home and move it to the new location. Alternately, if I want something shipped from point A to point B, it can be done for a price.

To clarify what I said earlier - I'm not implying in any way that the sandbox aspect of the game diminish in any way. I was merely suggesting that a new story would fit with a new beginning, and also with an overhaul of the game. Struggle between competing forces would be a side-story that players could chose to play along with or not, but add some depth to the game, not take from what is already there. For instance there could be raiding and attack missions at imperial stations that have you target rebel colonies and strongholds. On a bigger scale, whole factions could be recruited to sway the tide one way or the other. The galaxy is a big place to hide from either....

Ref Minor wrote:

Paul Hutson wrote:Brandon and I are looking through the code to make changes in how things work - rest assured we will balance everything.

@DrW : That last post made me wonder - why did you have to sell the shield for 20k?

Because those who were not paying for workers and so resources were selling for that price, if I put my similar statted items up in the marketplace at cost plus a reasonable margin I was undercut and no one bought. At the time I didn't know that people were not paying for workers wages, I just didnt understand how or why they were selling so cheaply.

Where were they getting the shields from that were costing less?

As a member of A-team and manufacture we bought from in house and only paid for cost if at all I never charged for any part I made, we used to share resources to make it cheaper I myself didn't know about the worker exploit untill after it was stopped. I used to buy from tex and sb when there good items went up

Paul Hutson wrote:

Ref Minor wrote:

Paul Hutson wrote:Brandon and I are looking through the code to make changes in how things work - rest assured we will balance everything.

@DrW : That last post made me wonder - why did you have to sell the shield for 20k?

Because those who were not paying for workers and so resources were selling for that price, if I put my similar statted items up in the marketplace at cost plus a reasonable margin I was undercut and no one bought. At the time I didn't know that people were not paying for workers wages, I just didnt understand how or why they were selling so cheaply.

Where were they getting the shields from that were costing less?

They were making them there was an exploit where if you transferred all your money to your alt the workers kept working for no pay on your main character, therefore no worker pay costs for research, manufacture, mining, or refining, it's very easy to sell cheap when your costs are limited to blueprint price.

I see. After the exploit was stopped did the prices go up?

Paul Hutson wrote:I see. After the exploit was stopped did the prices go up?

Paul,

After the "corrective action" where all the workers were taken from those that were cheating and those that were not 100% of payroll, the prices did not change. There was still such a glut of components on the market that they could not be absorbed by the economy.

One thing that Ref did not point out is that shields, weapons, and hulls were for the most part kept as "faction only" as to maintain a combat edge over the other factions. The only thing that I really sold on the market was power plants, engines, life support and other non-combat items. All of my combat items were of a limited market which was to the faction only.

Ref pointed out where players were transferring to alts. What about the ones with faction banker privileges that were storing the cash there? As long as you can be taken down to zero and then have the worker debt basically forgiven it opens the door for cheating. The only way to solve the issue is garnishment. The manufacturers would have to go into debt to pay their workers. They get to keep just enough in the bank to buy fuel (maybe 1500) and would have to run missions until the back pay is taken care of.

Phil McCrackin wrote:

Paul Hutson wrote:I see. After the exploit was stopped did the prices go up?

Paul,

After the "corrective action" where all the workers were taken from those that were cheating and those that were not 100% of payroll, the prices did not change. There was still such a glut of components on the market that they could not be absorbed by the economy.

One thing that Ref did not point out is that shields, weapons, and hulls were for the most part kept as "faction only" as to maintain a combat edge over the other factions. The only thing that I really sold on the market was power plants, engines, life support and other non-combat items. All of my combat items were of a limited market which was to the faction only.

Ref pointed out where players were transferring to alts. What about the ones with faction banker privileges that were storing the cash there? As long as you can be taken down to zero and then have the worker debt basically forgiven it opens the door for cheating. The only way to solve the issue is garnishment. The manufacturers would have to go into debt to pay their workers. They get to keep just enough in the bank to buy fuel (maybe 1500) and would have to run missions until the back pay is taken care of.

Agreed. Also a vacation mode would be very nice, so someone doesn't spend a holiday with their family and come back to the game with crushing debt.

The market had gotten used to those prices, they weren't going to go away soon. Towards the end of the game's life I had all kinds of novel blueprints I had researched but it frankly wasn't worth my time to produce them. I kept researching for love of the craft alone.

Vaughn Chisholm wrote:Towards the end of the game's life I had all kinds of novel blueprints I had researched but it frankly wasn't worth my time to produce them. I kept researching for love of the craft alone.

I wish I could say the same. Towards the end of the game I stuffed all my blueprints into the station because HAVOC found a way of destroying a size 100 research colony in a matter of seconds. Upon the first alert we would jump in only to find the colony gone. I sincerely hope this exploit has been fully identified and closed. I lost too many IWS colonies to that tactic. It's one of the reasons we quit spending money on IWS.

Phil McCrackin wrote:

Vaughn Chisholm wrote:Towards the end of the game's life I had all kinds of novel blueprints I had researched but it frankly wasn't worth my time to produce them. I kept researching for love of the craft alone.

I wish I could say the same. Towards the end of the game I stuffed all my blueprints into the station because HAVOC found a way of destroying a size 100 research colony in a matter of seconds. Upon the first alert we would jump in only to find the colony gone. I sincerely hope this exploit has been fully identified and closed. I lost too many IWS colonies to that tactic. It's one of the reasons we quit spending money on IWS.

I thought they fixed that bug... It was on the comp you could hit the fire all button or individual fire button I forget but you could fire the 20 sec weapons as 1 sec weapons. I took a 13 million repair against Vik when he used that exploit against me. The same thing would happen with colonies, you could clear a 50 colony in a matter of a few minutes.

SantsDeLaSants wrote:I thought they fixed that bug... It was on the comp you could hit the fire all button or individual fire button I forget but you could fire the 20 sec weapons as 1 sec weapons. I took a 13 million repair against Vik when he used that exploit against me. The same thing would happen with colonies, you could clear a 50 colony in a matter of a few minutes.

I understand what you are saying. In my Kat and the weapons I was using it would take me around an hour to kill a size 75 colony with constant bombardment. We were at the point where we on constant alert and strategically positioned when they came online we could be in the system that was hit in seconds. It didn't matter that we were making into the system within 30 seconds of the alert going off, they had already chewed up the shields and were working on the ground facilities. The piece that frustrated me was that you would go to the planet they were attacking and could not drive them off because they were an invalid target. You could see them on screen and no matter what you tried you could not lock onto them. Then they would "wake up" and just float across the screen. They didn't move in straight lines and angles, their paths were curved. You could see them "float by" the planet you were trying to intercept them at and they were ghosts/invalid targets. You could see them on the screen at planet 4 but you would be getting alarms that planet 1 was being hit. I don't know how many times I tried to drive them off while using the computer to no avail. We did find out that they could not do this to a player using the app. I would use the computer to get to the system they were hitting and then log into the iPad to ring their bell.

This is one of the reasons that Rayjan had mention the delineation of military vs civilian planets. You pay for an IWS colony only to have it ripped away by a cheat/exploit. I know I paid money to have a game piece put in play and can lose it but when we've taken adequate/extraordinary steps to protect those assets and they are just taken with impunity you lose the will to invest anything more into the game. It's the reason all the IWS purchases dried up from ATeam.

No game is ever hack proof. While going through the code we need to find out what they were doing and fix it. If this hack were to come back during the infancy of the new game and while the manufacturers were trying to get back on their feet to build out these XP highways it could be devastating to the progression of the game if they were being hit.

I have to say, I didnt like the IWS colonies, they were far too purely pay to win for game balance. Things like ABS were good for lower ranked players but were inferior to kats etc, but the large colonies were just "Win button"

I think the manufacturers should be awarded XP based on what they make small XP like 100 or so for every power gen or something like that and 1000's of XP for a ship hull.

SantsDeLaSants wrote:I think the manufacturers should be awarded XP based on what they make small XP like 100 or so for every power gen or something like that and 1000's of XP for a ship hull.

Sants - excellent idea, research as well IMO.

IDK about you but there better be a 'self-destruct' button for colonies if there are indestructible ones. I wiped so many of my own colonies to make room for others it's not even funny.

Ref - I agree to a point regarding IWS colonies, but they helped finance the game. That's one of my overall points. Premium in-game items and subscription items should not compete with 'rank and file' items. They should be at a level that allows normal play to be unaffected. That is the dangerous trap that premium items present. How do you implement them in a way that doesn't anger existing players and players that can't pay for them. The devs are going to HAVE to find creative ways to implement new stuff to finance the servers. The trick lies in the implementation of items already existing. A lot of people were pretty upset when their prototype items were rendered obsolete by antaris/javesco items...

After a bit more brainstorming, I have a solution to all of the manufacturing woes that was inspired by Phil's excellent 'point of sale' post where the purchaser pays market fees:
1. Point of production workers. When you start a manufacturing or research project, you pay a contract for completion of the work. You need to provide the food/water/hab, but that's it. You essentially hire temps to do the work. When you allocate the resources and/or the blueprint involved and hit either 'manufacture' or 'research' you are hiring free-market workers to do the job for you. When you commit to the project a pop-up window states "It will cost you XXXXX credits to complete this job. You are not an inter-stellar bus service. They get there and leave on their own. You aren't paying for workers who are just sitting around playing bridge and wondering why they all look the same.
There's no transferring money to alts/faction banks/other players to get out of it. You pay for the work done and that's it. There's no getting out of it and the playing field is level for everyone.

2. Automate resource mining. Well into the future, it would not be improbable to assume that robotic technologies have progressed to the point where you could run a full mining operation with fully automated robots. They don't need pay, they don't need food/water, but they DO need a lot more power and a small contingent of workers to maintain, monitor, and program instructions. You pay the workers required up front based on how much storage you have at that location. Refineries work the same way. Once again - worker pay = solved.

3. Transport can either be done manually by the player or via a teamster's service. You pay a set price per unit(s) of material to transport it to your intended destination.

4. Combine the edibles/water flatpack (same total size/worker requirements). I'm sure I am not alone in having lost THOUSANDS of workers to the buggy food/water/habitation system (many of them IWS). Simplify it at least somewhat, and leave a grace period of an extra hour or so before workers die so you don't lose a whole colony over placing workers at the wrong minute of the hour. Instead of loosing your workers in your first flatpack placed down, kill off workers in storage or in non-food/water structures FIRST so that the die-off doesn't snowball to a total loss.

/me loves Vaughn's post

That is a pretty heavy change to the game mechanics on hiring contractors to do the work. No more constant drain on worker payroll. Once the research or manufacturing project is over the workers leave. The player has to account for the number of workers assigned to the task and duration then pay up front. For refining the workers would remain at the planet and renew as long as they had materials to work with. For mining, that is a daily renewal as long as funds are present. Player can't make payroll 100% then the workers leave. Once the workers leave, the player must go into each colony and reset it. This would be the "vacation/holiday" solution where you either have funds before you go or plan on a big reset afterwards.

I really didn't like the old system because I had to buy workers and then make payroll? If you buy a worker then it is a slave and you don't pay slaves. If you pay a worker it means they have free will and can leave the job at any time which was not the case.

I suggest we take it one step further. Pay for all work up front, research, manufacture, mining, refining. For mines and refining, you pay based on the amount of storage at that facility. It lasts for XXX amount of time (based on the storage in that facility as well), so that people can't game the system by leeching resources out of and getting free resources indefinitely. The interface is identical to the manufacture or research setup. You have a slider pane where you allocate the workers and time and it presents you with a charge. There is no escape and no way of getting out of the pay. Any sort of recurring payments lead to the possibility of stuffing money somewhere else and possibly getting out of it.

If there is a system where work shuts down if you don't have the money...I can just see the mass emails to oesupport and cries of outrage in gen chat when it doesn't turn back on for some reason and someone or everyone is frozen until there is a server reset.

It can even be more expensive than the old system, most likely for balancing and government financing it will have to be and should be. In the long run everyone is better off because you don't pay for workers when you aren't using them. Overall it reduces tedium in the game because you no longer have to troll gov't markets for hours to collect workers when there isn't a big lot of them for sale at Dopi-mart...

Vaughn,

I must admit it does have some merit. Manufacturers would have an up front cost associated with a good. You would have to know what your cost margin was for each of the components. The market would definitely reflect the actual cost of making an item unless the player was dumping to drive the other manufacturers down.

I'm not so sure of doing it on storage. You put mining and refining on the same planet vs 2 separate planets. How would the metrics work? You set the shutoff to when the storage is full? In the planets where both mining and refining goes on you would have a finished product as the final outcome. The cost would be the same whether you were on a 10G or a 1 poor planet. The difference would be the time it takes them to fill the storage hoppers? What if you remove material while the processing/mining is occurring? This is why I proposed that those stay as front loaded renewable contracts.

I really like the idea of 1 hour before pay is due, the workers guild sends a notification letter(email) to the player that next contract renewal (payday) is due in the amount of xxxc. Failure to have sufficient funds available will result in contract workers leaving the planet to seek employment elsewhere. At this point the player has to grind/bank/beg to have the contracts auto renewed or go back to each individual planet and turn them on one by one after the renewable contracts expire.

I know I would have the cash on hand when payday came!